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Straw: ‘86 Mets Beat the ‘09 Yanks

DarrylSo Darryl Strawberry knows how to start an argument at any New York watering hole. Says the Straw: your 1986 Mets were better than the 2009 World Champion Yankees. [h/t Mets Police]

The ‘86 Mets were dominant in a far different era: pre-steroids, lower-scoring, more pitching and defense, more artificial turf and much larger parks. But last year’s Yankee squad was also a great one (not to mention more loaded than this year’s version, in my opinion). Here’s what Strawberry said:

‘Doc would’ve destroyed them. We would’ve beaten them. They’re a great team, but we wouldn’t have been intimidated. We could hit, we could pitch and we could definitely fight.’

All true, though as Bob Klapisch pointed out, the 1986 Gooden wasn’t nearly as dominant as the 1985 all-time great pitching year variety. So let’s take a look, shall we?

Infield

A-Rod, Jeter, Cano and Texeira vs. Johnson/Knight, Santana, Backman/Teufel and Hernandez. Even adjusting for the era differences in offense, I’m still giving this to the Yanks pretty easily. The only close position is first base, where you might opt for Hernandez’s leadership, superior defense, and clutch hitting over Tex’s big production numbers – maybe. Edge: 2009NYY

Outfield

Mitchell, Dykstra/Wilson, Strawberry against Damon, Gardner/Cabrera and Swisher. Just as obviously, I think this one goes to the Mets, especially adjusted for era weighting on offensive numbers. Edge: 1986NYM

Catcher

Carter in his mid-to-late prime versus Posada in his late prime – I’m going with Carter on this (bigger numbers even in that era, better arm, pitchers loved him), though Jorge is so crucial to that Yankees lineup and has a real shot at the Hall of Fame. Edge: 1986NYM

Starters

Tricky, this. Let’s just go top four, because both teams used a variety of swing men. The Mets sent Gooden (17-6, 2.84), Darling (15-6, 2.81), Ojeda (18-5, 2.57) and Fernandez (16-6, 3.52) to the hill – while the Yanks posted Sabathia (19-8, 3.37), Burnett (14-9, 4.04), Pettitte (14-8, 4.16) and Chamberlain (9-6, 4.75).  Yes, you have to adjust for leagues and eras. But it seems to me that it’s really not that close – three of the Mets hurlers putched to 2.84 and below while the “Joba” on the ‘86 Mets, young El Sid, was nearly dominant. I’m going Mets on this one. Edge: 1986NYM

Bullpen

Ok, so it’s easy. Mariano Rivera simply dominates this whole category, easily besting the Metsies lefty-righty combo of Orosco and McDowell. Robertson and Hughes added to the Yankee depth, though Sisk and Randy Myers were decent for the Mets, whose starters in those days went much deeper than they do today. Edge: 2009NYY

Bench

On any given day, the Mets had three or four of these guys in the hole: Dykstra, Wilson, Knight, Teufel, Backman, Mitchell and Mazzilli. That’s a killer bench, and Davey Johnson made the most of it during that 108-win season. Hairston, Duncan and Hinske simply don’t measure up. Edge: 1986NYM

Lineup

The Mets platooned at three positions – 2B, 3B and CF – and ran several guys out in LF as well. The Yanks fielded one of the most complete lineups of the small park-DH era, filled with productive veterans from top to bottom. Yeah, the Mets were clutch but the Yanks were deeper, in my view – at least in terms of the everyday lineup card. (Just how deep will be clearly in evidence in 2010, when a less potent Yankee lineup takes the field). Add Matsui in the DH spot and you have to give this to the 2009 Bombers. Edge: 2009NYY

Overall

This is fantasy-land, of course. Each team played in very different eras – in terms of parks, conditioning, pitching practices, playing surfaces, and chemical enhancement (though you could argue the Mets were, ah, chemically inclined in negative fashion). They’re both great teams, and that Yankee lineup was insanely deep last year. But I think when you seriously look at the starting pitching and everything those Mets could do, the conclusion is pretty clear – the ‘86 Mets were the superior team.

To test it, I ran a would-be subway series over at WhatIfSports – and the ‘86 Mets swept the ‘09 Yankees. What do you think?

Other views from: Subway Squawkers, HardballTalk and The Mets Police.

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By Tom Watson
March 8, 2010

View Comments

  • Slappy
    The Mets barely won the World Series. Barely beat the Astros in the playoffs and we all know what happened with the Red Sox. The Yankees fared far better in the post season and handily beat a very strong Phillies team.

    A fair way to judge two teams? No. But as good a method as any other.

    One clear advantage I give the Mets is Gooden but not the entire Mets starting pitching staff. The Yankees don't need slugging outfielders with the greatest infield in baseball history. The greatest relief pitcher of all time. Not the best pitching staff ever assembled but a damn good one and I'll take Johnny Damon over Dykstra. Dykstras better days were with the phillies and look at Damons numbers. With some luck he could have 3000 hits. Strawberry and Gooden are the Mets only real advantages over the Yanks. Posada holds his own against Carter.

    Mets win hands down as far as nicknames and baseball folklore go. A very fun team for sure.
  • tomwatson
    Also, I gotta say - the '86 Sox were way better than the '09 Phils. Maybe that's a whole other thread!
  • tomwatson
    Well, I don't think the '09 Yanks are slouches but I do think the '86 Mets have the clear advantage. Slappy I have to strong disagree on the starters - it's the Mets' clearest advantage. One through four ALL the Mets are better than all the Yanks.

    And though I like Jorgie, Carter's one of the top 5 catchers of all time and had a clearly superior career - that said, I think given the position, even with under 300 homers lifetime, Posada should receive strong HOF consideration.

    I'd take Damon too, I think - indeed, the Yanks were insane to let him go this year.
  • twasp
    Tom - ive come around - Carter 86 version is better than Posada. Mets starting is much deeper. AJ consistency sucks.Yanks hitting could be held down by superior pitching.

    Your not as dumb as your avatar looks! Kuuudos!

    PS Tell Straw - Arod would still kick his ass. Though Straw would probably cut the bitch.
  • twasp
    Straw - "we could fight" ?????? Say whaaaaat?

    Pass the pipe again Jason, Tom, Straw. You're all high.

    Stats between these eras are apples and oranges .

    The 09 Yankees would smack them around like rag dolls.

    Gimme a break Carter over Posada ..... In what alternate universe.

    And tell Straw arod can kick his ass.
  • tomwatson
    Hey Twasp, Carter has better stats in a lower stat era - and he was better defensively.

    Plus, you can't touch that starting pitching staff. Not even close.
  • twasp
    Handsome Tom - you indirectly contradicted yourself in this quote. If Carter is very good because his offensive stats were obtained in a low offensive stat era, than the Mets pitching staff arent as good as you say because their numbers were gotten during that low offense era. Darling Ojeda and especially Sid were not as good as you think and would get pummeled by the 09 yankees. Gooden was the only great one.
  • JasonChervokas
    Actually, in continuing this coversation via IM with Tom I've come around on Carter. My memory of Carter is that his was a devestating power hitter in Montreal but he fell off steeply in NY--I remember him as the .250, 15HR guy he became with Mets. But Tom's memory and the record shows that his first two years in NY were still excellent (especially the first, '86, when hit hit 30 HR). Carter's career numbers are better than Posada's and he was a better defensive catcher. You forget how good he was, especially in Montreal, because, if your memory is like mine, you remember his lame, aging final years when he was an easy out with ocassional power.

    Would that Mets team beat this Yankees team? Who the hell knows, you can only tell by playing the games. Computer models of games between historic teams is fun by less meaningful than even a spring training game. But certainly it would be a match up of the Met's excellent starting pitching and the Yank's devestating line up. Conventional wisdom says pitching wins. But the Yankee pitching wasn't bad, just short. It would be a good series, better than the 2000 World Series that's for sure.
  • JasonChervokas
    Interesting debate...Strawberry romanticizes the '86 Mets like the character in Springsteen's Glory Days--dreams of those years before he threw away his enormous talent....I'd like to think the '09 Yanks would have found a way to slug the '86 Mets into submission. They certainly couldn't pitch with that Mets team, at least not in the rotation...Last years Yanks snuck through the playoffs with Sabathia, a very shakey Burnett and Pettitte's pure moxie, which, is not to be underestimated. But it was a bailing wire and tape rotation. Not sure I'd take Carter over Posada, I'd argue that's a wash.
  • twasp
    jason - glad you took my advice and added an avatar. shows some professionalism. but what the hell is it? - a courthouse sketch? what are you in a witness protection program?

    Tomwatson looks handsome in a dopey way. And at least it a real picture!
  • JasonChervokas
    Dude, I was a professional journalist for 15 years, and an avatar has (and has) nothing to do with my professionalism..in fact, back in those days we were so professional we used English, not Sanscrit, and called them pictures. And, btw, at least my avatar is actually a picture of me, not an arthropod pest. And Watson handsome?! That proves there's no truth in avatars!
  • Twasp
    Dude - I see why you were fired after 15years- lack of professionalism. You and Tom will be the only ones talking to each other on this silly site until you get real. Watson IS a handsome dude! And his dopey smile is the best thing going on here. You, on the other hand, are a cartoon cut-out. Have the balls to show your face...... or are you cross-eyed ?

    PS - Eric_Goldberg kicks your ass !
  • JasonChervokas
    As long as you keep coming my every wish if fulfilled.
  • twasp
    Jason - sarcasm as a form of humor for a blog site moderator is very unprofessional. Tom, Im begging you, talk to him. I would tell you to drop him and go solo, but the dude has a keen baseball mind and I agree with 99 % of his observations.

    You actually make a good pair you've got the looks and he's got the brains.
  • tomwatson
    I find I have to agree with Twasp on this one.

    But I will add: the site's only two weeks old, bring your friends around!
  • twasp
    Tom - I have no friends - why do you think I'm talking to you and giving advice to stubborn Jason when its beautiful outside????

    If you are partners on this silly site with Jason - make him cowboy-up and post a real picture of himself like you did!

    Also fix your sort so it keys off the date/time on replies, not just the original post.
  • tomwatson
    The Yanks could be dominated by strong pitchers - you saw that last year. So I'm still going Mets.

    And I think Carter has the edge over Posada - '86 was his last big year, he was 3rd for the MVP, threw well, blocked the plate with gusto, and handled the pitchers brilliantly.
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