Posada Ain’t No Berra, Dickey

OK Posada wasn't as decorated as Dickey or Berra. Didn't win MVPs or have big seasons. But there is a little unnecessary roughness here. Strikeouts = unproductive outs? Were Dickey and Berra hitting behind the runners and hitting sacrifice flies at a higher rate than Posada - dont know? - than an outs an out. And who knows how many dps Dickey hit into?And who cares if Posada hits into 5 more double plays a year than Berra? meaningless stat.


Posada's 162 game avg stats are right there with those guys only his were more steady with less spectacular peaks. A very solid contributor to the most successful franchise during the time period and probably the best offensive catcher in his league for a decade. HOF - yes - by a hair.

PS - Johnny Damon is a HOFer too.

Well, Posada's 162 game average stats aren't right up there with Berra and Dickey, they're slightly below in just about every category (and well below Dickey's BA, tho Dickey wasn't the power hitter the other two were), and his career totals, like Tom says, would make him one of the worst catchers in the HOF (comparable to Campy but Campy's career was cut short). Doesn't mean he's not a HOFer, but as I said, I think he remains on the bubble. I'd have to be convinced to vote for him despite his slightly below HOF offensive resume and I'm a Yankee fan (his lousy defense is definitely a mark against him. If he was a great backstop he'd be a lock with his offense).

Of course strikeouts are unproductive outs. You can drive in a run or move a runner over with just about any other kind of out. A strike out does nothing for the team. I think Posada's excessive number of strikeouts compared to Yogi for one (Dickey was a much better hitter for average than either one) may in part explain why he has fewer RBIs with basically the same number of HRs per 162 games as Berra, and many more HR than Dickey. Both of those guys were just better hitters than Posada. All three were on great Yankee dynasty teams w/ lots of great hitters in front of them. I do think the best hitters don't strike out in 20% of their at bats, that's up there in Reggie Jackson territory but w/o the 500 HRs (FYI, Reggie's K rate is 22% of PA, Mantle, 17%). Some sluggers can get away with a high strike out rate. Posada's not that kind of slugger.

THe "more steady" v. "peaks" argument seems to me another way of framing the great seasons v. complier debate. For me either can be an HOF, but great seasons are more important. If you win three MVPs--like Berra and Campy--you were obviously one of the best players of your time. Posada never was. Furthermore, I don't think Posada was really any more consistent than Berra or Dickey except after 32 years of age. I suspect much of that is due to modern conditioning, etc.

Posada's close, but I dunno if he'd get my vote. Damon's not even close, though we was an excellent player. But I'm a bit of a HOF purist. I think the Hall if full of guys who should be purged. The Hall should be for the greatest of the great not the likes of Rick Ferrell and Red Schoendienst.

I don't think Posada

Stats are apple and oranges when you compare eras. (though your "slightly below" and my "right there" is equivalent thinking in my mind. Look at Posadas OBP/OPS+) Posada was never a big rbi guy but I dont remember him hitting high enough in the line-up to get enough chances. (I think your success rate % metric you mentioned in another post was an excellent idea)

While some outs can be more productive than a strikeout (few proportionatly) unless Yogi/Dickey were stickmen/situational hitters (they dont strike me as being that though, admittedly I never saw them play) then the difference in strikeouts may not have meant much run production wise.

I think the way you compare eras is through comparison to contemporaries. Piazza was a little before, Mauer a little after. During a large portion of his career Posada was the man. (Pudge was a 'roid creation)

Yeah, Posada had some serious defensive flaws, but so do a lot of HOFers. I actually admire the fact that he, a second baseman, was playing catcher and on pure will and determination made it work.

I think Posada - I think solid, steady, clutch run producer, best offensive catcher of his generation - clubhouse leader - a throwback , a guy you want in a foxhole with you - champion. That to me is a HOFer.

PS - if Damon gets to 3000 (should have stayed with Yankees) , he'll make it. Writers love him.

Yeah, I think Damon - if he stays healthy - will make the Hall on the back of 3,000 hits and general popularity. He's 575 short and should be somewhere around 425 short after this year, so 3-4 years after that - around age 41 as a DH for somebody - he'll probably get there. And he's the kind of old player who'll be able to keep signing 1-2 year deals because he's a good teammate type. His career numbers will end up looking very much like Craig Biggio and Robin Yount.

Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah - I hope Johnny plays long enough. He was the type of player that didn't have fantastic stats - but when he needed to turn it on, he turned it on and his team won. And he is a modern day medical marvel - last 14 years in a row over 140 games played, only others Rose,Brooks,Aaron and Mays. Nice company?

Can you see my second reply to Jason ? How was my 2nd Posada HOF argument, any more convincing?

I like Posada too - and I've met the guy a couple of times. He's a throwback in terms of playing hard and temperament.

I just think he falls below like Dwight Evans et al. (though Andre Dawson's election argues for Evans, I'd say).

If you at his contemporaries and near-contemporaries at catcher, who's going in? Piazza certainly. Pudge probably. Who am missing besides Mauer, who's way to young to speculate about yet?

tom,
how is it you see pizza in the hall ahead of rodriguez? i've always seen piazza as a terrific hitter, but also irksome, a poor defender, a poor pitcher manager and a terrible arm. what am i missing?

You're not missing anyone, Tom, and that's my point. Comparing Posada's stats to all these ghosts from other eras is not the right test. Compare him to his contemporaries and Posada was the man.

I don't think you can credibly make a case for Posada for the Hall, much as any of us might like to.

He doesn't come close to the performance of the "slugging catchers" - Bench, Berra, Fisk - nor is an all-around guy like Dickey.

Great player, but he'd be the weakest Hall of Fame catcher of the live-ball era outside of Rick Ferrell and Ray Schalk....

Actually, the purpose of my column was to allow folks like you to draw their own conclusions and provide fodder for discussion. The conclusion that I have drawn from your piece is that I have been more successful than Jorge.

Thanks for reading it and writing about it.

Bill, thanks for the comment. Yeah, I was confused because I read the piece as a list without framing context, even context such as mention of the "Is Posada an HOFer?" conundrum--which I guess was it's intent--and it worked! Still think you shoud through your $.02 in on the subject of what all the stats signify.

Agree with Jason. What's the point of just listing a bunch of stats on a blog? We can go to Baseball Reference.com for that.

- Who is the best Yankee catcher of all time?
- Should Posada make the HOF?
- Am I a dope for not providing any context?


Any of those titles work.