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Enough Already about Joba

SEATTLE - SEPTEMBER 20: Starting pitcher Joba...
Image by Getty Images via Daylife

If you ever needed proof that spring training is too long and that there are too many reporters and bloggers writing about Joba Chamberlain, the phony brouhaha over differing comments about Joba is the proof you seek.

In case you missed the minutia (because, say, you had a life)… NoMaas offers a good recap.

In short, Yankee pitching coach Dave Eiland told one newspaper that Joba is to be a reliever for good. Yankees scouting director told WFAN that it is unlikely that Joba will compete for a rotation spot next year. But GM Brian Cashman spent last week refering to Joba as a “starter in the bullpen.” Somehow this seems to confuse Yankee bloggers.

Again, from NoMaas:

After reading all of these conflicting quotes, here’s what we think:

1. The scouting/baseball types like Eppler and Eiland believe Joba should be a permanent reliever because he fists pumps, screams, sleeps on a bed of nails, kicks homeless people, and clears out the bathroom when he’s dropping anchor.

2. The scouting/baseball types think his total of 60 IPs as a reliever are a large enough sample size to draw a conclusion about his future.

3. Dave Eiland believes a “great reliever” is more valuable than a “good starter.” — That’s disappointing.

4. Joba pitched 88 innings in the minors and was given 43 ML starts between ages 22 & 23. Is that really enough time to write him off as a starter? Really?

5. Cashman is torn between the recommendations of his scouting/baseball types and his own personal opinion.

6. If Joba is mae a permanent reliever, Hal better get the checkbook ready for 2011 because the going price for starting pitching isn’t cheap.

7. If Joba is made a permanent reliever, what was the point of the Joba Rules?

No doubt there’s a lot of debate and disagreement among the Yankees baseball brain trust as Marc Craig of the Newark Star-Ledger got Cashman to acknowledge.

But–despite the poor PR that results from having an organization speak publicly with multiple voices and opinions–the whole debate seems to be much ado about nothing.  Cashman’s soft-selling of Joba’s move to the pen is, first and foremost, the effort by a cheif operating officer to manage his employee. Cashman knows Joba wants to start and he doesn’t want a disaffected Chamberlain, so even if he agrees with the permanent move to the bullpen, that’s not what he’s telling the press or Chamberlain, at least not right now.  Second, Cashman may well be trying to  managing the public’s (and ownership’s) expectations as well as, perhaps, his own. When he refused to deal Hughes and Chamberlain for Johann Santana it illuminated a strategic choice to pin a lot of hopes on the two kids. If one or neither pans out that choice turns out to be a mistake (an irrelevant mistake since the Yanks won a World Series, have acquired Vazquez, and Santana has been injured). Third, there’s a very good chance that the Yankees don’t know for sure what they’ll do with Joba in the future. And that’s ok. As I’ve already noted many fine pitchers began their careers bouncing back and forth between the rotation and the pen. It’s a perfectly normal rational method of development for a kid who has a life arm but whose best role is uncertain.

I’ll say it one more time and then stop for good:  Pitching out of the pen will not retard Joba’s development if he ever returns to the rotation. His limited major league experience so far and his mental and physical approach to pitching do seem to line up better with the profile of a relief pitcher than a starter. The Joba rules were all about protecting a kids arm by limiting his increasing innings year over year, if Joba doesn’t injury his arm then they were reasonable and good and hardly wasted.  And if Joba is developed as a closer he will have plenty of value to the team. He ain’t gonna be Mo, obviously, but at some point, and probably soon, Yankee fans are going to have to learn to live without Rivera, so having a kid at the ready is a good idea. As hard and expensive as it is to trade for or sign a  starter, it’s harder to trade for or sign a closer. If Eiland believes a great reliever is more valuable than a good starter, he may be right.

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By Jason Chervokas
March 29, 2010

View Comments

  • twasp
    Yes - he needs pitch limitations. His arm is an investment and must be protected vs injury. But you better pray that Met mgt doesn't jerk him around like the Yankees jerked Joba around - reliever - starter - reliever-starter - reliever , start regularly - skip a start - skip 2 starts. start regularly - throw secondary pitches - don't throw secondary pitches. Taste great - less filling!

    Mejia's mental make-up/fortitude/personality might be able to handle this. Joba 's having a hard time. The Yankees are notorious for not being able to evaluate or develop pitching talent.
  • tomwatson
    Hey let me ask you guys something - as a Mets fan, I'm naturally where you were a couple years back with Joba, only with Jenrry Mejia. He's starting to be hyped big-time and he's clearly got the raw talent.

    Do we need Jenrry Rules - or do we just pitch him? Thoughts?
  • twasp
    Hey , can you blame us ? We haven't had a home grown starter since Andy Pettitte - 15 years ago.
  • Ballpark
    TWO YEARS AGO JOBA WAS CONSIDERED BY MOST SCOUTS AS ONE OF THE TOP IF NOT THE TOP YOUNG PITCHERS IN BASEBALL.His fastball was ranked in the top 3 in all of baseball and he had the best slider in the game. Mismanagement led to his demise. Instead of teaching and building one of the best arms to hit the majors since Gooden , the Yankees rushed him to the big stage.Joba had only 80 innings in the minors before coming to the Bronx.His mechs were not perfected and he ended up on the DL with a shoulder injury.He has never been the same.The talent was there it was misused.His arm was as good as any one of the guys mentioned above.
  • JasonChervokas
    I think a good arm is such a small fraction of being a good pitcher but it's the only one, or at least the primary one, that fans look at when they consider a prospect. I can think of a ton of young pitchers with good arms who didn't develop into major league winners (Oliver Perez is a good example, but the history of baseball is littered with examples); and, as a corollary, I can think of so many pitchers who never had great stuff but had great careers--like Andy Pettitte, for example.

    Mental toughness, control and command, the ability to adjust to hitters as they inevitably adjust to you--these are more important than a good arm. If you have these qualities and average major league stuff, you can have a long productive career. If you have a great arm and none of these quality and you can have a couple of years succeeding on stuff alone, maybe, if your stuff is great, and then the league will catch up with you. I haven't seen much evidence of in Joba's brief major league career of the kind of mental toughness, ability to adjust, or command and control that make for major league success, unfortunately. He's a kid, of course, he can change. But he'll need to if he wants to be a successful starter.

    As to how Joba projected when he was a kid, he was 75th on Baseball America's top 100 list in 2007, and was pumped up to 3rd on the list in 2008 on the strength of his 24 major league innings. Those 24 innings were electrifying, but, let's be fair, they were 24 innings. (http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryanke...

    75th out of 100 is hardly "the top pitching prospect in baseball"

    Too many fans act as if it was inevitable that Joba would be the next Roger Clemens and the Yankees screwed that up. That's silly. "His mechanics were not perfected..." damn straight, but I'm certain that's not for the lack of Yankees staff trying to improve his mechanics. Like all the other fans, I'm only watching from afar--I haven't spoken pitching with Joba, watched his work outs, talked to the coaching staff, etc... I can only go on visual evidence. But based on the visual evidence the biggest barrier to Joba as a starter is Joba, his mechanics and his head.

    Joba's already helped the Yanks win a World Series, so I can't say they've mismanaged him. And Joba hasn't shown much in the way of ability to improve his mechanics or make adjustments. However, he HAS shown an ability to pitch effective and valuable shut down releif innings. Could be become a decent starter? Maybe. Is it in Joba's best interest to stay in the minors and perfect his starting game, or pitch in relief in the bigs? Not sure. Is it in the Yankees best interest to have him pitching in relief in the bigs? Yes.
  • Ballpark
    Jason you make some good points that I do agree with but I also think you may have overstated your case with the following points.

    1."Good ARM being a small fraction"Jason thats a ridiculous statement,I am sure if you think about it you would take that one back.

    2.O.Perez having an arm like Joba,did Perez ever throw 100-101,I didn't think so.

    3.You implied Pettite didn't have good stuff,wrong again. Andy had plus stuff across the board when he was young,Elbow issues and age have made Andy's stuff avg.

    4. You countered my point that Joba was considered one of the best young pitchers and then said he was 3 on BA'S top 100.Do you agree or are you just throwing as much stuff at the wall seeing what might stick.

    5.Your thoughts on control and command,Learning to adjust is the part that Joba missed.This is the part of a pitcher that IS taught,You can't teach 100 mph and you can't expect young pitchers to somehow know how to do the things you refrence without teaching,developing and experience.

    6.You seem to imply that Joba's development was handled properly.I don't know another person that has followed the Yankees that would agree with that concept.The bottom line is the Yanks did a horrible job with Joba.

    7.You talk about Joba's mech and I agree but a young pitcher can not change his mech at the major league level let alone in the Bronx,thats what the minors are for.Joba never had a chance.

    8.I'm not sure what to make of your last paragraph,but I guess your not either.

    In closing; IMHO the Yanks need to send Joba down maybe for the entire year to re-work Joba's mech,because he will not be successful in any role short term or long term.He is a high risk shoulder injury waiting to happen. Any pitching that looks at his delivery knows it.
  • tomwatson
    I'd just like to point out that a 100 mph fastball - like a Porsche - is a nice thing to have. But you have to know how to drive 'em.

    The Mets had a kid named Henry Owens in camp a few years back. Threw over 100 regularly. Couldn't harness it and was dealt to the Marlins. Was back this year as a non-roster minor leaguer.

    Pitchers are funny animals - it's a longshot that even the Baseball America hyper-phenoms ever make it to All Star status (I lived through Paul Wilson et al). Yet, lots of lower draft choices do make it. Witness Johan Santana.

    Joba was never a guarantee - in fact, he wasn't even likely to make it big (not that he still might not, as the NYY eventual closer post-Mo).

    In 2004, Olllie Perez regularly threw in the 97 mph range. He was a top 100 Baseball America prospect. But so what?

    That same year, the top pitching prospect in all of baseball - according to BA - was Edwin Jackson. Threw high 90s, but just two pitches. He's now been on four MLB teams and after winning 14 and 13 games the last two years, has become a valuable starter - but not a star. That could so easily be Joba....virtually nothing distinguishes them in their career paths.
  • twasp
    "I'd just like to point out that a 100 mph fastball - like a Porsche - is a nice thing to have. But you have to know how to drive 'em" = Tom

    Agree . but if you don't own a Porsche, and you own a saturn , you'll never learn how to drive a Porsche.

    A Porsche owner can be taught how to drive it through experience and training.


    Tom - you just got stung by the WASP.
  • Ballpark
    Tom some very intresting analogies.Let us all agree on 3 things;

    1. Joba had a great arm and pitched very well early and prior to his 1st shoulder injury.You don't see arms like his come along to often,and he showed much more than just a kid throwing 100.He also had the best slider in the game,and made Big League hitters look foolish.

    2.He was rushed to the Bronx and has been mis-handled ever since.

    3.If something is not done to improve his horrible Mechs (INVERTED W,POOR FINISH AND NO FOLLOW THROUGH)He will not stay healthy causing him to never be successful.

    Last point some people act like pitching as a starter or as a reliever are 2 different animals,they are the same .Pitching is pitching.
  • JasonChervokas
    I would only add that there are some differences between relief and starting pitching...the mechanics are the same. But, 1) facing a guy once instead of three times allows a reliever the chance to get by with one or two pitches where a starter might would likely have to develop some other pitches; 2) stamina--you can get by emptying the tank facing three or 5 hitters at a time in relief where you might not be able to do that as a starter; 3) pitching every day vs. pitching every 5th days--some guys can do it, some guys can't.

    But I do agree that Joba's mechanics are a problem. And I do agree, being teachable or coachable has nothing to do w/ being a "good kid," a lot of different factors go into being teachable. Just from watching him Joba looks like he's trying to implement the lessons he's getting but I'm not sure he's able to translate the knowledge into the physical. And, while I do agree his slider was awesome, and still is, I think AL hitters started looking for the slider in certain counts, laying off the low ones and catching up with the ones in the zone.
  • twasp
    BP is 100% right on that. Previously, against Joba, they thought his slider was his fastball because they had to start their swing earlier. Now when he's at 92 they dont have to cheat and can distinguish between the 2 and lay off the slider.

    Jason - 10- 8 round to Ballpark.
  • Ballpark
    Jason when Joba was cruising 98 and topping out triple digits, batters had to cheat on the fastball causing them to swing at sliders that would literally bounce in the dirt. Without the velo nobody swings at his slider.
  • JasonChervokas
    That's an interesting point. It begs a couple of questions. A) Can Joba be a 98 mph pitcher consistently in any role? B) Might that be something he can do more easily one or two inings at a time? C) Can he get hitters out with fastball-slider if he's throwing 92-94? (might he have to take something more off the slider then?)
  • Ballpark
    Joba may have to re-invent himself. He does have a plus curve and at times has had a swing and miss changeup,Against the RedSox he got several k's using his change and I remember Youk commenting about Joba's change. He may have to learn to change speeds if and when he realizes he can't overpower hitters the way he once did.
  • JasonChervokas
    Yeah, it is a lot to ask of the kid, but he might have to. I always though his curveball was good too. I haven't seen much of his change up.
  • Ballpark
    Jason did you see Mitre pitch tonight? If so I would like to hear your thoughts.
  • JasonChervokas
    Unfortunately, no, didn't see any baseball at all today. The line looked good.
  • Ballpark
    Mitre has been very impressive this spring.He's handleing lefty's better with a nasty 2 seam FB. Tonight he looked like he was throwing a split that he was getting swings and misses. The Jays roughed him up all 3 times he faced them last year so tonight was a real good test for Mitre and he aced it. He made 1 mistake to Hill and that was about it for the Jays. The emergence of Mitre was the end of Gaudin,the only true competition in Yankee camp.
  • Ballpark
    Jason,The velocity on Joba's slider has also come down with his FB.It tends to tumble up to the plate sometimes you will hear oldtimers call it a cement mixer.

    A) Unless Joba fixes his mech he will never see 98 again and if he does his shoulder will probably fall off.The harder throwers are more susceptable to shoulder issues.

    B)Its obviously easier to pitch 1 inning in relief than be a starter,but Joba's problems throwing the baseball will turn up where ever he pitches.

    C)Yes if Joba can go back to the drawing board re-work his mech and find himself.IMHO this needs to be done away from the microscope of pitching in the Bronx. At 92-94 Joba can be a very good pitcher but he won't dominate like he did throwing 100.
  • twasp
    BP - you are 100% right on that. Previously, against Joba, they thought his slider was his fastball because they had to start their swing earlier. Now when he's at 92 they dont have to cheat and can distinguish between the 2 and lay off the slider.

    Jason - 10- 8 round to Ballpark.
  • tomwatson
    Yeah, I generally agree with all of that - especially that last point.
  • JasonChervokas
    Well, all the guys who make the majors have "good" arms...I'm talking about the difference between average stuff, which is what Pettitte has (he came up with an average fastball and a good changeup--a deception not "stuff" pitch--and he developed another pitch because he needed to be able to get in on righties, that's adjustment ability) , and someone who throws 95 mph (the radar gun may be the worst thing that happened to baseball scouting, a high mph fastball does not equal MLB success at all) with movement and late life.

    Similarly, when I say "good" arm or "good" stuff that doesn't mean 100 mph. AJ Burnett has great stuff--not that he throw's 100 mph, but a live fastball and wicked breaking pitch--and he's had an excellent major league career, but would anyone argue that his career numbers are commensurate with his stuff? No way. Put Pettitte's head in Burnette's body and you'd have, I dunno, Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, whatever....

    My point about Joba and Baseball America is that Joba was the 75th of 100 prospects on the Baseball America list based on his minor league career....Then the geniuses at BA moved him up to 3 exclusively on the basis of his 24 major league innings. In fact, that's a text book case of a kid being overrated on the basis of limited Sept. success and evidence that, before his call up, he was considered a prospect, but not a top prospect.

    In terms of Joba being taught--to be taught you have to be teachable, that means you have to be open to instruction, you have to able to implement the instruction, etc. I've taught, that's something I actually do know about. Joba looks like a kid who is trying--he's listening to the lessons (Cano, by contrast, looks unteachable) but isn't quite good enough to put the lessons into practice either physically (the mechanics get worse, not better, the more he tries to follow instruction) and mentally (he doesn't look like the kind of kid who is going to outthink too may hitters, just nod yes and throw the pitch and think less please).

    I wanted to see the Yanks try to develop Joba as a starter. Having seen a year and a half of Joba as a starter, I'm no longer convinced that he'll ever be a top notch major league starter--I've seen evidence of the stuff, not of the temperment. However, he may be a top notch major league reliever--I've seen evidence of the stuff AND the temperment. Certainly his major league numbers as a reliever are enormously superior to his major league numbers as a starter. I'm perfectly comfortable with Joba in the pen and I suspect that Eiland et al are correct about Joba--at the major league level his career is in the pen.

    Two further points, in re his shoulder, yeah, he could have arm problems with his delivery, whether he's starting or relieving. I dunno, we'll see. I'd like to see him with much better mechanics, but that's something he is going to have to do for himself.
    In re his development, the Yankees goal and Joba's goal may be different. Joba wants to start. I get that, it's a prestige job with much bigger earning potential than pitching in the pen. The Yanks want to win, now and over the next couple of years. In terms of getting the most out of Joba I think the Yanks have done fine. He's had to grow up on the big league level, that's tough, especially in NY, but he's done ok and they've won. I think way too much has been made of a lack of clarity about Joba's role. As a posted a couple of days ago, bouncing back and forth between the pen and rotation is an age old way of breaking in to the major leagues and worked fine for the likes of Nolan Ryan and David Wells. It just may be a fact that Joba's never going to be a dominating major league starter but may be a top flight reliever, not because the Yanks screwed anything up but because that's who Joba is.
  • Ballpark
    Jason alot of good stuff there.A kid named Chapman just got 30 mil because he threw 100.How much do you think he would have gotten if he threw ,say 95? and be honest,no where near as much.

    In terms of taught I would like to use the term coachable and thats something I know a little about.
    Its what I have made a living at for the past 15 years.Being coachable is the ability to take instruction and turn it into physical change.Many people think it has something to do with being a good kid or a bad kid. I have worked with some of the nicest kids that were not coachable and some of the worst that were.
    My buddy Twasp introed me to your site.I'm not a writer so excuse some of my mistakes,I'm just a baseball guy.Good luck I'm sure you guys will do great.
  • twasp
    Ballpark - Congratulations - you have swayed Tom and have Jason on the ropes with some excellent logic counterpunching. Jason is stubborn, he doesn't go down easily (he's even gone into the archive black and white tapes for a Bill Dickey reel to win an argument}. You are ahead on points going into the 12th round - jab and stay clear and the W is yours!
  • tomwatson
    Yeah, and I've seen Oliver Perez throw a 5-hit complete game shutout, fanning double digits during a year he won 15 games as a No. 2 level starter.....just sayin' - sometimes the league adjusts, sometimes the head games catch up - who knows. I'm not sure Joba ever projected above a decent No. 2....and I've never seen that much hype around No. 2.

    I'm not saying he's not a talented though erratic guy - he is. But I think people were way too eager to embrace the whole "homegrown Yankee superstar for the next generation" thing. He could be - but it's just as likely in 5 years that he'll be on a minor league spring training invite from the Padres.
  • twasp
    Tom - I brought over my friend Ballpark - so we can tag team you.




    "I'm not sure Joba ever projected above a decent No. 2.."


    The potential to be an elite pitcher was quite evident pre-injury in Aug 08. Pettitte and Mussina wish they had that arm (98-100). That guy could have had a year as good as any of those guys you mentioned. He had two almost unhittable pitches. The development of secondary pitches would have made him great. Unfortunately he got hurt, his mechanics got bad, he lost his velocity and he's too young to have learned enough to get by without it.

  • twasp
    Tom - did you see him in 2007 when he was consistently at 98 and topping off at 3 digits? Blowing away batters at a 13 per 9 clip?

    Did you witness in 2008 on July 25, when he threw 7 shutout innings against the Red Sox, out dueling Red Sox ace Josh Beckett, allowing only 3 hits and striking out 9. The Yankees won the game 1–0.

    In 2008 he pitched 100 innings at a 11 k per 9 clip and 2.6 era.

    This was a pitcher to behold - a fireballer who captured the hearts and minds of NY Yankee fans. Do not use his latest exploits to downgrade the pitcher he was and can one day be again!
  • tomwatson
    Never in the course of human events have so many obsessed for so long over so little talent.

    Which is not to denigrate Chamberlain, who is clearly a major leaguer. But he will never, for example, put up a Gooden '84 - even a Valenzuela '81 or Fidrych '76. (Or, quite frankly, a Pettitte '09 for that matter or a Mussina '08)

    To put it another way, Phil Hughes is just as "special" a talent. Jenrry Mejia may be. Stephen Strasburg is a bigger talent than all of 'em. It's weird the way the hype has washed over Joba - I don't really get it - and it's kinda hurt him.

    Hell, he's even bending the hat brim now...
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